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From what i have read. Depending on the turbo you have, the K03 can handle about 15psi or so. You can spike into the 20's but as long as it drops down to around 15-16 you'll be good. Now if you have the K04 turbo, i have no clue. I've seen people run the K04 with about 300hp with stock internals and haven't had any problems. It seems that the 300hp is about the limit. Like i said, this is from what i have read. HTH
jon
 

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Oh damn, ok. I don't plan on ever being near 300, i was just checking to make sure i wouldn't need to do some preventative mods if i was getting a chip. Thanks, i actually had another question, whats the cheapest you've seen the Carbonio intake? Do you have anything against it, I've heard good things and I love the look so hopefully you don't have any bad news. [email protected]
 

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The K03 can handle much more than 15 psi. The problem is that it is out of it's efficiency range when it hits much higher, and while you are pushing more boost, because the little turbo is working so hard on getting it there, it is blowing extremely hot air, which raises intake temps, which in effect cancels the benefits of running higher boost. When you have a chip, it usually allows you to hit 24 to 25 psi spikes before it will go into limp mode.

The 1.8T stock internals are very beefy internals. APR Stage III guys are pushing over 300hp to the wheels with race fuel and having no problems with internals. Billy Tylaska was pushing around 460+ to the front wheels when he finally blew up. He was running with 50k+ miles on the motor with 40k+ being ran with a custom turbo setup where he had secondary injectors and a Turbonetic dual BB 55 trim T3/04E. For a chip and average bolt ons, you don't have to worry about your internals, but rather your clutch and tranny.

Also I never heard of a K04 that made anywhere near 300whp. Most are making around 220whp unless they are spraying a huge shot.
 

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The APR STG3 kit boosts 22psi. The limiting factor on this kit as of now is the stock I/C. They will have modified STG3 software for their FMIC. You can count on running 30psi of properly tuned boost w/o any problems.
 

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Shazaam..... hurry up and pay the car off... hurry up and pay the car off.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Dong:

I would not be surprised at all if APR is going this route with some sort of Stage IV kit. It would be entirely possible for the kit to be pushed to 30 psi spikes, and taper down to 20 at redline if the fuel mapping is going to feed it correctly.

15DGR V6 is actually a tech at APTuning if I am correct, and they are an APR dealer, and installer and I know he has installed several stage III cars at their shop. I hope APR does step it up a notch. I may end up with the kit soon.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I understand what you saying but on stock internals there is no way the motor will hold up to those type of boost pressures. It was simply not built for it, even if you do have the fuel system to support such boost levels. Say the boost (30psi) comes in full @ 4K and does hold till redline, with a stock intercooling system or even with an aftermarket intercooler heat soak is going to be such a big factor something is bound to happen. I even really see 30 psi being a reliable goal even on race gas. Or at least at all safely on a stock 20V motor. This is just an educated opinion. I have ZERO experience with a 20V at those boost levels. I helped build my buddies '90 300Z TT from BPU form to fully built bottom-end to manifold and 26 psi later the motor has been very "sketchy" at these levels. 15dgr v6 may be the expert on the motor and its capabilities but I know one thing, if I spend $20K on a car I would never trust a word of mouth prediction of what the motor can reliably handle
. Anybody here have a wide-band O2 with a A/F gauge to prove even the spikes on there 93OCT program does not create a bad lean condition? That is all it takes to start the snowball effect to buying a new motor. Just curious.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: evilgti2000 ]
 

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The STG3 kit includes an upgraded fuel pump & injectors. According to APR, the fuel injectors & boost frequency valve are approx. between 2/3 & 3/4 duty cycle. The impression that I get from them is that they will be turning up the boost on the STG3 kit w/the upgraded I/C. I'm anxious to see what they have planned.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 15DGR V6:
The STG3 kit includes an upgraded fuel pump & injectors. According to APR, the fuel injectors & boost frequency valve are approx. between 2/3 & 3/4 duty cycle. The impression that I get from them is that they will be turning up the boost on the STG3 kit w/the upgraded I/C. I'm anxious to see what they have planned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What is the boost on the Stage III???
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I even really see 30 psi being a reliable goal even on race gas
Why would you want to increase boost simply because of higher octane fuel? This is typically not done with the 1.8T, anyone with even the 93/100 octane program can tell you that it does not increase boost to go to race fule software. It simply advances timing.

I do not have a wide band however I have made many WOT pulls from 1200 rpms to 6600 rpms on one, and to tell you the truth, my car runs just a tad on the safe side of rich especially in the upper rpms. When I do logs in my vagcom, they tell me the same thing. I have actually been told that I will shoot a flame out of my tailpipe from time to time when letting off the throttle in third gear, and that is a tell tale sign of running rich.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
 

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I think some people are really forgeting a big factor here......fuel system. All that boost needs a little fuel if you know what I mean. And I really don't think you are going to see any held boost of 30 psi on stock internals. Maybe a spike of that, maybe. And even if there is a spike you better try get the boost to hold a desired psi or a spike of that boost can lean out the motor enough to cause fatal detonation
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by evilgti2000:
I think some people are really forgeting a big factor here......fuel system. All that boost needs a little fuel if you know what I mean. And I really don't think you are going to see any held boost of 30 psi on stock internals. Maybe a spike of that, maybe. And even if there is a spike you better try get the boost to hold a desired psi or a spike of that boost can lean out the motor enough to cause fatal detonation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would not be surprised at all if APR is going this route with some sort of Stage IV kit. It would be entirely possible for the kit to be pushed to 30 psi spikes, and taper down to 20 at redline if the fuel mapping is going to feed it correctly.

15DGR V6 is actually a tech at APTuning if I am correct, and they are an APR dealer, and installer and I know he has installed several stage III cars at their shop. I hope APR does step it up a notch. I may end up with the kit soon.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Dong:
I even really see 30 psi being a reliable goal even on race gas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why would you want to increase boost simply because of higher octane fuel?
[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]

I never said you increase boost because you run higher octane fuel. I was simply stating higher octane fuel makes it safer to try and run higher boost levels then normal
. And also I do believe the Vagcom tool does not give you a RPM step by step indication of your exact A/F matched to exact RPM. I believe it gives you an average of the pull from start to finishing RPM. Could be wrong though. But I would be willing to bet a good amount of $$$$ on the stock 1.8T fuel system if you held 21psi from 2100 to redline you are running pretty lean


[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: evilgti2000 ]

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: evilgti2000 ]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I was simply stating higher octane fuel makes it safer to try and run higher boost levels then normal
Can you explain how you can run higher boost with a higher octane of fuel? I am curious as to logic behind this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
And also I do believe the Vagcom tool does not give you a RPM step by step indication of your exact A/F matched to exact RPM. I believe it gives you an average of the pull from start to finishing RPM.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Could be wrong though.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
But I would be willing to bet a good amount of $$$$ on the stock 1.8T fuel system if you held 21psi from 2100 to redline you are running pretty lean
We were not talking about the stock fuel system here. You are correct, you would definately run lean at 21 psi to redline on the stock one, but you *might* be able to get away with like 15-16psi or so at redline with the stock fuel system.

My block 002 (a/f) shows very similar to the one shown above, so it leaves some room before running lean especially towards the top of the gears. I very well may add a small manual boost controller to piggyback on my chip/ECS N75 actuater valve and then monitor it to see what the A/F is.

The kit that was discussed above, APR Stage III, comes with new injectors, fuel pump, and a FPR. According to 15DGR V6, the Stage III kit's fuel system (which is good for 250-265whp on pump gas and 300+ on race fuel out of the box) is only at between 2/3 & 3/4 duty cycle. This means that there is 1/4 to 1/3 more fuel that they can push before being maxxed out. This also means that there is the ability to increase boost if a FMIC is added to properly cool the charge, and the software is modified to monitor everything and is properly tuned.

I am not tryin to be a dick here, just don't want to contribute to misinformation.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Dong:
We were not talking about the stock fuel system here. You are correct, you would definately run lean at 21 psi to redline on the stock one, but you *might* be able to get away with like 15-16psi or so at redline with the stock fuel system.

My block 002 (a/f) shows very similar to the one shown above, so it leaves some room before running lean especially towards the top of the gears. I very well may add a small manual boost controller to piggyback on my chip/ECS N75 actuater valve and then monitor it to see what the A/F is.

The kit that was discussed above, APR Stage III, comes with new injectors, fuel pump, and a FPR. According to 15DGR V6, the Stage III kit's fuel system (which is good for 250-265whp on pump gas and 300+ on race fuel out of the box) is only at between 2/3 & 3/4 duty cycle. This means that there is 1/4 to 1/3 more fuel that they can push before being maxxed out. This also means that there is the ability to increase boost if a FMIC is added to properly cool the charge, and the software is modified to monitor everything and is properly tuned.

I am not tryin to be a dick here, just don't want to contribute to misinformation.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The information provided
this tech article can explain more indepth behind what race gas is and how it is used. This tech articel can expalin a little more indepth, though geared more towards Porsches in general, behind turbocharged systems coupled with race gas.

Never did I state that race gas makes 30psi reachable. Race gas will make higher boost levels safer due to the fact of less likelyhood of detonation occuring. You stated that APR has race gas programs. What exactly does the race gas program do? Now I assuming once again, so before you throw up a demeaning smilie take what I just said into consideration first, but you would think that the race gas mode would advance timing slightly and increase boost slightly. Now why couldn't they do this in 93 mode? Maybe it is because race gas reduces detonation when coupled with proper ECU tuning. Same like you said with intercoolling, intercooling extracts heat from the charged air to make a higher boost level more safe from detonation.

And just to point out this conversation never was all about APR's stage III system, it was about what a safe level of boost could be accomplished on a stock 20V motor.

And no, I don't think you are a dick......I don't even know you. I just think posting a crude smilie to a statement I clearly stated I could be wrong about is kinda dick.


By the way, where did you get your car dyno'd at? I am not at all trying to be smart in anyway, I am just in your area and looking for a closer place than Pottstown
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You stated that APR has race gas programs. What exactly does the race gas program do?
APR race programs do not increase boost, it simply advances timing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I just think posting a crude smilie to a statement I clearly stated I could be wrong about is kinda dick.
I should have put a
after the
sorry if I offended you with that one.

Anyhow, I have not actually dynoed my car yet. The dyno with a/f above is not mine, and also that is the Vag Com Block 120 dyno, and block 002 A/F chart. There are a few dynoes around though, I know of one in particular that is real close and cheap. It is called Seymore Performance and they are in Mechanicsburg, PA. They have a Dynojet Model 248C, and prices start at $50 for 3 pulls w/ wideband 02, plus only $5 for additional pulls after the first three. They also have hourly tuning rates of $75 per hour w/ wideband 02, plus $15 for each car they have to roll on and off the dyno if you bring multiple cars in for the hourly rates. You can call them at (717) 697-9763, or se their web page at www.seymoreperformance.com.

Where do you live? I have not seen you around before I don't think. I live in York, and work in Mechanicsburg.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]
 

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How much is his Z pulling? what did he rework in the bottom end, did he go titanium, or just higher mill quality?
 

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You guys are correct about the race fuel. The higher the octane, the less prone to detonation. I'm using the APR kit as a reference. The APR STG3 kit runs 22psi. 22psi is run w/the puny stock I/C; & the I/C is the limiting factor for this turbo kit. This is a constant 22psi; not a boost spike. The 1.8T bottom ends are built for forced induction & are very stout. They WILL handle 30psi of PROPERLY TUNED BOOST. I understand that you may have doubts about running that much boost on a stock bottom end; but this is a motor that was built for boost. When VW & Audi builds motors that are destined to be pressurized, they do it right!!!
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fli gti:
How much is his Z pulling? what did he rework in the bottom end, did he go titanium, or just higher mill quality?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His Z runs mostly 18psi in normal driving conditions. And around 22psi when he is feeling "frisky"


[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: evilgti2000 ]

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: evilgti2000 ]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Dong:
APR race programs do not increase boost, it simply advances timing.

I just think posting a crude smilie to a statement I clearly stated I could be wrong about is kinda dick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I should have put a
after the
sorry if I offended you with that one.

Anyhow, I have not actually dynoed my car yet. The dyno with a/f above is not mine, and also that is the Vag Com Block 120 dyno, and block 002 A/F chart. There are a few dynoes around though, I know of one in particular that is real close and cheap. It is called Seymore Performance and they are in Mechanicsburg, PA. They have a Dynojet Model 248C, and prices start at $50 for 3 pulls w/ wideband 02, plus only $5 for additional pulls after the first three. They also have hourly tuning rates of $75 per hour w/ wideband 02, plus $15 for each car they have to roll on and off the dyno if you bring multiple cars in for the hourly rates. You can call them at (717) 697-9763, or se their web page at www.seymoreperformance.com.

Where do you live? I have not seen you around before I don't think. I live in York, and work in Mechanicsburg.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Big Dong ]

Understood
. I just work alot in the York area. Mechanicsburg is actually a little farther for me but I do appreciate the info. You might know a guy named Steve Crumbling I used to work with, he is into VW's too. If you ever get a group going down there I would like to tag along and pull too. Last time I went to Pottstown it was all muscle heads except for my buddies 300 ZTT and didn't want to be low man on the totem pole pulling. At least if I go with other VW's I know I wouldn't hopefully be trailing by 100HP
. Thanks for the info again though.
 
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