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I'm not exactly Mr. Knowledge when it comes to turbos, but I do know that the front mount is better. With the side, there's not cold air directly hitting it, but with the front, you get cold air from the outside hitting it while you're driving. This will act like a radiator.
 

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Front mount for a VR6, larger turbos and a larger charge would Heat Soak a Smaller Side mount pretty Quickly. Im sure, Aaron, Big Dong, or Evilgti2000 could provide u with some more specific information.

[ January 31, 2004: Message edited by: 98a4 ]
 

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I have the ATP FIMC on my car, and like it very much, and would suggest it for your VR6T set-up. I actually had a good conversation about this with a guy once, he made som interesting points, and it got me thinking. It's all dependent on the intended use of the product. Some claim that the a FMIC will keep cooler since it's direct air cooled, where as a SMIC is fed through the undercarriage, wheelwell, whatever. Where as, some claim that a SMIC is better specifically for the reason that the FMIC is located in front of the radiator (acting similar to a radiator), will become heatsoaked without airflow. Which cold be said about a motionless SMIC, but I think because of the location, it would take mre time to heatsoak. Sure one could argue that this radiator effect would dissipate once the car got moving, but I would point to the arguement that some have made that the intercooler is more of a heatsink than a heat-shedder. In other words, (some have argued, which is debatable) that the intercooler works by using it's thermal mass to cool the charge. The bigger it is, the more time it takes to heat it up. But if it starts off at a hotter temperature to begin with, then the FMIC is at a fundamental disadvantage--in spite of, and BECAUSE OF it's bigger size/weight! Take the example of stoplight to stoplight racing. Sitting at a light, reving and waiting. With a FMIC the whole FMIC would get nice and toasty being spread out in front of the radiator and with almost no airflow. It's thermal-mass would be at a higher temperature than a SMIC which is nicely segregated from the radiator and engine bay. So in your stoplight drag from light to light, the bigger, heavier, hotter FMIC might actually be at a disadvantage. Meanwhile, take into account other FMIC minuses such as increased piping length and volume (more turbo lag and more pressure drop) and I would start to carefully consider if a FMIC is actually a viceless upgrade....maybe. If, on the other hand we consider a 1/4 mile drag, then the FMIC disadvantages (radiator heating, pressure drop, turbo lag) are minimized, and it's strengths of more exposure to frontal surface area are emphasized. I think this is the situation that most people have in their mind when they think FMIC upgrade. Where as, in something like a slow autocross type race with many on/off throttle applications, more turbo lag (due to FMIC tubing length) could be more damaging than any gains in ultimate power. Let's not even mention the added weight out in the nose can't help the cornercarving--I know it's minimal, especially after you've cut out part of your heavy bumper rebar to fit the FMIC!
Think of it this way: with a FMIC, every time you start off from a stoplight, you've got a heavier and hotter IC to cool off before it starts to help you. Moreover, you'll also be saddled with more more turbo lag and pressure drop. Granted your typical non-dual SMIC core size is about half what your typical FIMC core size is, so maybe you'd be looking at similar performance anyway. This is only my opinion, take it as you will.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOLCOMGTI:
I have the ATP stage one kit for my 2001 GTI VR6 and i wanted to know should i buy a front mount or should i get a side mount and which is the best>>>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How are you liking your TC setup if you don't mind me asking?
 

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Dual Side mount is what I would recomend, mainly because that is what HPA Motorsports uses for it's new Stage II R32

HPA Motorsports

Although, as long as the FMIC doesn't interfere with the airflow to your radiator, that would work great as well.

Your choice: Steath dual setup or show-em-what-you-got front mount.
 

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In Responce to Josh:

Awsome write up, it has me thinking also.
You talk about the radiator heating up a Front Mount; but the fans suck in air correct? so the amount of heat that is able to move forward and cause the IC to become heat soaked would seem minimal. I do no know exactly what the heat threshhold of the materials FMIC's are made of, but it would seem to me that it is going to take alot of red light Reving to heat up the IC enough to have a negative effect on the overall performance. Even if it was to become heat soaked it would take much longer then a SMIC would take.
Side mounts have a pretty good flow of cool air, it is also shaded from the sun. We all know how hot the hood/Body of a car can get on a hott summer day. I think alot of times, FMIC's are used for looks, the Dual SMIC's are close to the same volume, but most of us would much rather have a big ass IC behind the bumperskin over a ugly piece of mesh. I am not saying your wrong, you know much more then I do, I'm just trying to get a better understanding and have some of my questions anwsered.
 

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This is an excellent question Josh...

Luckily most FMIC are constructed of Aluminum, which has a very low specific heat. What this means is that aluminum heats up relatively quickly, but it also disapates that energy very quickly as well, essentially storing very little energy within the metal structure. I believe this is because of the electron shell configuration of the metal.

I think that if your FMIC is in direct contact (metal to metal) it could transmit a lot of energy to the FMIC; I would rather have an insulator at the connection points, such as a form of plastic or rubber. Now, as for the other form of heat transmission, radiation, i don't think it could really transmit to much energy to the FMIC, but you could always try a radiation barrier (something along the lines of a heat shield) to protect it.

Dang it! I wish I was taking my Thermodynamics class this semester...oh well that is my $.02....
 

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I see both your points, and agree.
I guess because an air/air intercooler uses ambient air as the cooling medium, an air/air intercooler cannot be too efficient - simply, the bigger the intercooler, the better. The air is then exposed to a very large surface area of conductive aluminium that absorbs and transfers the heat through the thickness of metal. As far as the exothermic, and endothermic property specifics of aluminium, I don't know. I just can't get past the whole grey area of pressure drop with these large faced front mounts, I will have to continue researching. I like the idea of pull fans though, and IC misting, for the heat soak issues.

Hope we are not getting too off topic here, or hijacking the thread.

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I have the ATP stage one kit for my 2001 GTI VR6 and i wanted to know should i buy a front mount or should i get a side mount and which is the best>>>
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tommunist:
How are you liking your TC setup if you don't mind me asking?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love the set up im just fine tunning it right now and sounds sexy as hell
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 98a4:

I don't think there is one bumber "better" than another. Some do have more room, but you can always trim the rebar. Your better off finding a few bumpers you like, then finding out which one of those would be best suited for the size IC you have.

[ February 01, 2004: Message edited by: 98a4 ]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

would a front mount intercooler fit in my stock bumper???
 

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Josh's Car w/ ATP FMIC (For 1.8t, i dont know if the VR FMIC is larger)



I'm sure trimming is required, but Josh will chime in here soon and give you some details.
 

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That looks sexy. For some reason I thought I heard about someone using 1.8T ICs on a VR6T - maybe I was dreaming but if not I would think that any intercooler that fits could do the job. Did you install your own TC setup on your car? Not that I am capable of that kind of thing just yet but if you did do you have any install pics?

side note: this is kind of funny -
http://www.vwturbo.com/misc/resellers.asp#newhampshire

Look at all those tuning shops in NH!!! Not a big deal though - there seem to be a few in Mass or if I wanted to drive up to Portland, ME (not too far). It doesn't matter right now since I can't afford the 3.5+ grand I'd have to spend overall - parts + install + clutch + LSD(maybe, maybe not with low boost). But it will happen oh yes it will.


[ February 01, 2004: Message edited by: Tommunist ]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 98a4:
Josh's Car w/ ATP FMIC (For 1.8t, i dont know if the VR FMIC is larger)



I'm sure trimming is required, but Josh will chime in here soon and give you some details.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats nice>>>
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOLCOMGTI:
I love the set up im just fine tunning it right now and sounds sexy as hell
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much boost are you running? And is this your daily driver? I know about 90% of the people around here will say no no to TC your VR6 if you use it as a daily driver but I'm sure some people do it. I'm just looking for some hope so that I can do it myself one day....
 

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When, and if, I ever get a VF-Supercharger (which will be modified to my modified engine's needs) I plan on using an ABD FMIC, or maybe an EvoMS FMIC, which has the inlet and outlet on the same side. I guess I will have to install the VF kit first and see which will be better. But regardless...when I go to FI, I will have a FMIC to accompany that upgrade.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tommunist:
How much boost are you running? And is this your daily driver? I know about 90% of the people around here will say no no to TC your VR6 if you use it as a daily driver but I'm sure some people do it. I'm just looking for some hope so that I can do it myself one day....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i run low boost when im not raceing like 5 pounds and i turn it up when i am. and to answer you question if its a daily driver i say if you do it right and have time to work on it and enjoy working on it do it. Its worth the work and the problems arnt as bad as people think>>>
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Fryauff:
I have the ATP FIMC on my car, and like it very much, and would suggest it for your VR6T set-up. I actually had a good conversation about this with a guy once, he made som interesting points, and it got me thinking. It's all dependent on the intended use of the product. Some claim that the a FMIC will keep cooler since it's direct air cooled, where as a SMIC is fed through the undercarriage, wheelwell, whatever. Where as, some claim that a SMIC is better specifically for the reason that the FMIC is located in front of the radiator (acting similar to a radiator), will become heatsoaked without airflow. Which cold be said about a motionless SMIC, but I think because of the location, it would take mre time to heatsoak. Sure one could argue that this radiator effect would dissipate once the car got moving, but I would point to the arguement that some have made that the intercooler is more of a heatsink than a heat-shedder. In other words, (some have argued, which is debatable) that the intercooler works by using it's thermal mass to cool the charge. The bigger it is, the more time it takes to heat it up. But if it starts off at a hotter temperature to begin with, then the FMIC is at a fundamental disadvantage--in spite of, and BECAUSE OF it's bigger size/weight! Take the example of stoplight to stoplight racing. Sitting at a light, reving and waiting. With a FMIC the whole FMIC would get nice and toasty being spread out in front of the radiator and with almost no airflow. It's thermal-mass would be at a higher temperature than a SMIC which is nicely segregated from the radiator and engine bay. So in your stoplight drag from light to light, the bigger, heavier, hotter FMIC might actually be at a disadvantage. Meanwhile, take into account other FMIC minuses such as increased piping length and volume (more turbo lag and more pressure drop) and I would start to carefully consider if a FMIC is actually a viceless upgrade....maybe. If, on the other hand we consider a 1/4 mile drag, then the FMIC disadvantages (radiator heating, pressure drop, turbo lag) are minimized, and it's strengths of more exposure to frontal surface area are emphasized. I think this is the situation that most people have in their mind when they think FMIC upgrade. Where as, in something like a slow autocross type race with many on/off throttle applications, more turbo lag (due to FMIC tubing length) could be more damaging than any gains in ultimate power. Let's not even mention the added weight out in the nose can't help the cornercarving--I know it's minimal, especially after you've cut out part of your heavy bumper rebar to fit the FMIC!
Think of it this way: with a FMIC, every time you start off from a stoplight, you've got a heavier and hotter IC to cool off before it starts to help you. Moreover, you'll also be saddled with more more turbo lag and pressure drop. Granted your typical non-dual SMIC core size is about half what your typical FIMC core size is, so maybe you'd be looking at similar performance anyway. This is only my opinion, take it as you will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ive been looking into a new front bumper. what is the best front bumper on the market to fit a front mount intercooler in it??
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Ive been looking into a new front bumper. what is the best front bumper on the market to fit a front mount intercooler in it

I don't think there is one bumber "better" than another. Some do have more room, but you can always trim the rebar. Your better off finding a few bumpers you like, then finding out which one of those would be best suited for the size IC you have.

[ February 01, 2004: Message edited by: 98a4 ]
 
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